Well, it looks like the jury is still well and truly out...talk of
irregularities and missing ballot boxes in Florida....

Haven't had this much fun since good old Mayor Daly and the ballot-stuffing
boys of Chicago....

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
(all message content (c) 2000 by
synthetic worlds, ltd., permission
to reprint specifically denied to
SFX Magazine)

Well, it looks like the jury is still well and truly out...talk of
irregularities and missing ballot boxes in Florida....

Haven't had this much fun since good old Mayor Daly and the ballot-stuffing
boys of Chicago....

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
(all message content (c) 2000 by
synthetic worlds, ltd., permission
to reprint specifically denied to
SFX Magazine)





=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: jmsatb5@aol.com (Jms at B5)
Date: 8 Nov 2000 17:22:03 -0700
Lines: 31

If you check out cbs.com and abc.com, you will find reports of police cars
outside polling centers in mainly black communities in Florida ticketing people
who showed up to vote for minor offenses, intimidating african-americans...a so
called "computer glitch" which gave the Socialist candidate -- who was polling
literally 1 or 2 votes in every other county -- nearly 10,000 votes in *one
county* that may have been for Gore...the 10,000 Gore votes that disappeared
from Vusalia (sp?) county after they had already been logged into the
computer...

Not to mention the GOP calls to older people telling them they couldn't vote
unless they *specifically registered* for this election, and best of all, the
call that THEY GOT ON TAPE AND GAVE TO THE FBI from a GOP phone bank saying
that people had to bring their voter registration cards with them to be
eligible to vote, and if they didn't, it could cause them legal trouble.

We're looking here at some massively serious allegations of vote fraud,
intimidation, and more.

The GOP has literally tried to steal the election.

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
(all message content (c) 2000 by
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SFX Magazine)

Also, MSNBC just reported that 19,000 ballots were *thrown out* because they
had two holes punched for presidents, as though somebody had gone through and
mass-punched ballots to disqualify them.

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
(all message content (c) 2000 by
synthetic worlds, ltd., permission
to reprint specifically denied to
SFX Magazine)

>James Harris, the Socialist candidate in question, has 589 votes
>in the tally from yahoo.com. I was monitoring this tally fairly
>continuously last night as it became clear that the election would
>be decided in Florida, and I never saw any large number of votes
>for this candidate. I wonder where CBS got this "interesting"
>factoid that he got 10,000 votes in one county?
>
>>We're looking here at some massively serious allegations of vote fraud,
>>intimidation, and more.
>>
>>The GOP has literally tried to steal the election.
>
>I seriously doubt it. =20

Here's the specific information. =20

FROM CBS NEWS:

While the nation waited, Democrats raised concerns about irregularities i=
n
several Florida counties. Democratic Party lawyers said ballots in Palm B=
each
County were illegally configured, causing some voters to be confused by t=
heir
choices. In Miami-Dade, Broward, and other counties, the Gore campaign wa=
s
concerned about delays in the delivery of ballot boxes to counting places=
.=20

As a symbol of the controversies surfacing around the state, the election=
s
supervisors' office in Volusia County was wrapped in yellow police tape.=20

"There are some serious questions about the accuracy of the Florida vote,=
and
we're prepared to seek a strong enforcement of Florida election laws," sa=
id
attorney Ben Kuehne, a Democrat who played a legal role in the overturned=
Miami
mayoral election in 1997.=20
=20
CBSNews.com Legal Analysis=20
If there is a legal challenge, it clearly will be a case where the judge =
will
immediately drop whatever else he or she may have on the docket to fast t=
rack
this through the legal process.=20

This way, an ultimate decision from the courts comes before mid-December,=
when
the Electoral College is scheduled to meet to implement this vote.=20

If the recount doesn't go the vice president's way, it will be awfully to=
ugh
for his team to successfully challenge the count in court.=20

The Democrats will have to make a compelling and precise case of voting
irregularities; they will have to identify specific individuals willing t=
o
swear that they either weren't permitted to vote or didn't vote their
intentions because of voting problems.=20

If after the recount Governor Bush's lead is smaller than the number of
specific incidents of voter irregularities the Gore folks can point to, t=
hen I
think it becomes more likely that there will be a legal challenge.=20

But if Bush's lead is greater than the sum of that second number, we eith=
er
won't see a challenge or we will see an unsuccessful one. =E2=80=94 CBSNe=
ws.com Legal
Analyst Andrew Cohen=20
=20
=20
One controversy involves an oddly drawn ballot that confused some voters =
and
may have caused them to vote for Pat Buchanan instead of Al Gore, the For=
t
Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel reported in its Wednesday's editions.=20

Hundreds of irate Palm Beach County voters, fearing they or their friends=
voted
for Buchanan instead of Gore, besieged the county election department on
Tuesday and Wednesday with complaints about the ballot, the paper reporte=
d.
Buchanan received 3,407 votes in Palm Beach County, far more than neighbo=
ring
areas such as Broward County, where he got 786, and Miami-Dade County, wh=
ere he
got 561. In Precinct 162G, the Lakes of Delray area where Gore received o=
ne of
his highest vote totals in all of Palm Beach County, a county high of 47 =
voters
picked Buchanan, too.=20

Another possible balloting quirk was in Volusia Country, where James E. H=
arris,
an obscure Socialist candidate, polled 9,888 votes out of his statewide t=
otal
of 10,471.=20

State Democratic Party officials raised concerns that a computer error ma=
y have
caused the outsized ballot for Harris in Volusia County, south of Daytona=
Beach
on Florida's East Coast. In other counties, Harris received 0, 1, or 2 vo=
tes.


FROM ABC NEWS

But Democratic Party officials say they=E2=80=99re concerned about numero=
us reports
of irregularities in Florida voting that may cost Vice President Gore eno=
ugh
votes to lose the election. (if you witnessed one tell us)
According to Bob Poe, Chairman for the Florida Democratic Party, rep=
orted
irregularities include many accounts of confusion on balloting in Palm Be=
ach
that may have caused some voters to select unintended candidates.
But they also include, he said, lesser known reports of possible vot=
er
intimidation in certain African-American precincts and possibly thousands=
of
lost votes due to a possible computer glitch.
=E2=80=9CThere are a lot of questions here, there are a lot of angry
Floridians,=E2=80=9D Democratic National Committee spokeswoman Jenny Back=
us said
today. =E2=80=9CPeople are talking about taking away somebody=E2=80=99s c=
onstitutional
right to vote, there are thousands, literally thousands of reports of
irregularities.=E2=80=9D=20
Jesse Jackson said he got calls on Election Day complaining that bla=
cks
had difficulty voting in Florida and other southern states. Jackson said =
some
voters were told there were no more ballots, or that polls were closed. =E2=
=80=9CWhat
we need is not just a recount by hand, but also a thorough investigation,=
=E2=80=9D
Jackson said.=20
Intimidation Alleged=20
Poe told ABCNEWS.com Democrats had received reports of intimidation of vo=
ters
in the largely African-American precincts of Wakulla County on the Florid=
a
panhandle.
Reports suggest =E2=80=9Chighway patrol troopers were stationed outs=
ide of those
precincts with lights flashing and ticketing people,=E2=80=9D he said. =E2=
=80=9CIt was
bizarre, it was like going back into the early 1900s,=E2=80=9D he said.
=E2=80=9CEven in a tiny town like Wakulla and those African-American=
precincts,
that could account for the 2,000 [Gore votes] right there,=E2=80=9D he sa=
id.=20

Vanishing Votes in Volusia?=20
Poe also said party officials are concerned thousands of votes for Gore m=
ay
have been omitted from the Democrat=E2=80=99s vote total in Volusia Count=
y, a largely
African-American community located on the east coast and central part of
Florida.
According to a Volusia County official, a problem was found with a
computer disk that contained results from a particular precinct, but coun=
ty
officials have not yet said specifically what the impact was.
Poe said Democrats had received reports of an instance in which a
preliminary voting count this morning for Gore in Volusia County, reporte=
d by
Florida election officials, actually decreased by about 10,000 over time,
before climbing again.=20
=E2=80=9CNow that might have been a typo, who knows,=E2=80=9D he tol=
d ABCNEWS.com.
=E2=80=9CStranger things have happened in Volusia County.=E2=80=9D
The alleged decrease may also have been detected by Miles Gibson, a =
Ph.D.
candidate and instructor at the University of Virginia, who says he recor=
ded
2,716,995 votes for Gore in Florida at 2:06 a.m. this morning and then
2,707,798 votes for Gore at around 2:15 a.m., while following a national
newscast.
=E2=80=9CI can=E2=80=99t certify these numbers, but I was paying ext=
remely careful
attention,=E2=80=9D Gibson said.
Michael McDermott, a Volusia county court judge said today there is
nothing to indicate Volusia=E2=80=99s unofficial vote count is flawed or =
that
appropriate procedures were not followed.
The county=E2=80=99s election Canvassing Board met today to discuss =
the matter
and the judge directed that three members representing the Democratic and
Republican parties be present.
Officials have begun recounting all of the county=E2=80=99s votes an=
d expect to
be finished by close of business Thursday.
McDermott also ordered Volusia=E2=80=99s election office secured, Th=
e Associated
Press reported. It was sealed with crime tape, and all ballots were locke=
d in
the office vault.
=E2=80=9CWe will be doing everything it takes to make sure the publi=
c has full
confidence in the ballot count here,=E2=80=9D McDermott said.
=E2=80=9CWe=E2=80=99re hearing all sorts of things. Right now we=E2=80=
=99re trying to sift
through what=E2=80=99s true and, you know, this is the most bizarre thing=
I=E2=80=99ve ever
seen,=E2=80=9D said Poe.=20


Democratic Party officials also have said sample ballots handed to F=
lorida
voters by volunteers as they entered the polling places in precincts in P=
alm
Beach listed the candidates in a different order than what voters saw in =
the
voting booths.
Democratic National Committee officials say voters complained ballo=
t
holes for Al Gore were so close to that of Pat Buchanan that many voters
weren=E2=80=99t sure who they had voted for.=20
The result, they said, was voters who referenced the sample ballots =
to
cast their votes may have voted for Reform Party candidate Pat Buchanan w=
hen
they thought they were voting for Gore.
The Democratic National Committee said it started receiving complain=
ts
from voters that the actual ballot was very confusing. Basically, voters =
said,
the hole punch for Gore on the ballot was so close to that of Buchanan th=
at
many voters weren=E2=80=99t sure who they had voted for.
=E2=80=9CBy Gore there were two holes =E2=80=A6 I had to figure out =
which one,=E2=80=9D said
voter Lena Fransetta. =E2=80=9CI asked one of the ladies for help and she=
didn=E2=80=99t
know. When I left I figured out I voted wrong.=E2=80=9D=20
Another voter, May Cohen, said, =E2=80=9CI don=E2=80=99t know if I v=
oted wrong =E2=80=A6
Republicans had only one hole, Gore-Lieberman had two. I think I did righ=
t, but
it was very confusing.=E2=80=9D=20
DNC officials reacted immediately by calling the county supervisor, =
trying
to put up signs, or designate a phone number for those who felt they may =
have
voted the wrong way. The director of Florida=E2=80=99s Division of Electi=
ons, Clay
Roberts, said there was nothing wrong or unlawful with ballots in the sta=
te.
DNC at one point also claimed nine ballot boxes were missing in Brow=
ard
County, which boasts approximately 220,000 voters, but later reported the=
boxes
were recovered and were being counted.
They said they had no information on how the boxes were lost or how =
they
were found. Ed Cast of the Florida Elections Committee said the boxes wer=
e
never really missing. =E2=80=9CThere was a slight mishap, but they have b=
een sitting
at the supervisor=E2=80=99s office,=E2=80=9D Cast said.
Still, the DNC in Florida has indicated it will send lawyers to file=
a
court petition for a recount if there is a controversy over the outcome.=20

GOP Investigating Reports=20
Republican National Committee spokesman Tom Yu said party officials were =
aware
of the reports of voter tampering and irregularities and that they were
investigating.
=E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99ve heard rumors but I can=E2=80=99t confirm any o=
f those rumors yet and I
think at this point our people are looking into those rumors and trying t=
o
track down if they are true,=E2=80=9D Yu said.
In response to the reports of voter confusion at Palm Beach, Yu warn=
ed
against jumping to any conclusions about rumored voting irregularities.
=E2=80=9CWe=E2=80=99re investigating the irregularities and if those=
irregularities do
exist then, let=E2=80=99s find the source and try to rectify them,=E2=80=9D=
he said. =E2=80=9CAt
this point I think it=E2=80=99s an investigation that we don=E2=80=99t wa=
nt to raise any
undo excitement that isn=E2=80=99t warranted. We are looking into any of =
these
irregularities and if they do prove to exist, the proper action will be
taken.=E2=80=9D=20

Voting Shenanigans Elsewhere=20
DNC spokeswoman Backus said Tuesday some New York voters were turned away=
from
some polling places, discouraged from voting altogether, and possibly con=
fused
into voting unintentionally for a candidate they didn=E2=80=99t really wa=
nt.
However, given the large victory margins for Democrats in New York, =
it is
unlikely any alleged tampering had any impact on the races.
Backus also said the DNC=E2=80=99s Web site was hacked Monday night =
and that its
e-mail server crashed because it received a large wave of messages. The s=
ystem
was back up and running by 10 a.m. Tuesday.
=E2=80=9CThis just brings shame to the election process,=E2=80=9D sh=
e said.
Hackers also targeted the GOP=E2=80=99s Web site. Hours before polls=
opened, RNC
spokesman Yu said, the GOP=E2=80=99s site was replaced by a lengthy anti-=
Bush tirade.

While saying his message was not endorsed by either party, the
unidentified hacker left a link to Gore=E2=80=99s campaign site and wrote=
, =E2=80=9CGeorge
W. Bush would make a great president for those states which traffic not s=
o much
in decency but bigotry. Not acceptance but hate. Not love but fear.=E2=80=
=9D=20

Possibly More False Information=20
Democratic Party officials also alleged voters were intimidated and misin=
formed
before entering voting booths in states including Missouri, Michigan, Iow=
a, and
Kansas. Democratic officials relayed unconfirmed reports from Iowa of sen=
ior
citizens receiving telephone calls telling them they could not vote unles=
s
specifically registered for the election.
=E2=80=9CThis isn=E2=80=99t true,=E2=80=9D said Backus. It=E2=80=99s=
=E2=80=9Cdesigned to confuse
seniors and keep them from voting for Al Gore =E2=80=A6 We won=E2=80=99t =
stand for it and
challenge the other side to stand up as well.=E2=80=9D
In West Virginia, according to officials, voters were receiving call=
s from
a Republican phone bank in California falsely telling them Sen. Robert By=
rd,
D-W.Va., had not endorsed Gore.
In fact, said Gore National spokesman Doug Hattaway, =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=
=99s the first
time he has endorsed a Democrat for president since 1964, when he endorse=
d
Lyndon Johnson.=E2=80=9D
In an incident not described by Democratic officials, Kansas=E2=80=99=
state
government is looking into telephone calls made to some residents giving =
false
information about the state=E2=80=99s election laws, according to The Ass=
ociated
Press.
Democrats had reported getting recorded messages Monday night incorr=
ectly
telling them they must bring voter registration cards to polling places t=
o be
allowed to cast a ballot, the AP reported.
The campaign of Rep. Dennis Moore, a Democrat seeking re-election in=
the
3rd Congressional District, had contacted the FBI this morning about the =
phone
calls.=20
Moore=E2=80=99s office played the message for the AP: =E2=80=9CFailu=
re to comply with
election law is serious business, so make sure you have your card and do =
it
right.=E2=80=9D=20

Attempts to Extend Poll Closings=20
Meanwhile, Democrats in various states Tuesday night tried unsuccessfully=
to
get polls to stay open later to accommodate long lines of voters. In St. =
Louis,
just an hour before polls were set to close, a judge ordered them to stay=
open
three hours past their closing time =E2=80=94 until 10 p.m. local time =E2=
=80=94 to
accommodate the heavy turnout.
Democrats who sought the extension cited long lines and a shortage o=
f
booths, ballots, judges and other equipment. Judge Evelyn M. Baker said t=
he
Board of Election Commissioners =E2=80=9Cfailed to live up to its duty to=
the voters
of the city.=E2=80=9D
However, 45 minutes after the ruling, a three-judge panel in the Mis=
souri
Court of Appeals overturned Baker=E2=80=99s decision and ordered the poll=
s closed at
once. Similar filings to keep polls open were denied in Madison and Milwa=
ukee,
Wis., Portland, Me., and Detroit.=20
jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
(all message content (c) 2000 by
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to reprint specifically denied to
SFX Magazine)

>On the other hand, we can always be led by the guy who invented the
>Internet and lied about Bush's tax-cut plan and is for gun control and
>married to the woman who invented the V-chip (for real this time) and
>Parental Advisory labels. Yes. Bush is obviously the worst candidate
>in this election.

Get real...this is the worst you can do in opposition to Bush, who lied to the
press about any prior arrests, changed his driver's license number to make it
harder to track such arrests (and was arrested at least once or twice more for
vandalism and rotten behavior), got his daddy to put him in the National Guard
to avoid the draft and went AWOL for 90% of that, never bothering to show up
for his tenure there, and may now be at the center of the biggest and most
blatant attempt in decades to steal an election through fraud and intimidation?

Yeah, much better choice.


jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
(all message content (c) 2000 by
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>Then the correct time to register a complaint is BEFORE the
>votes are in, not *after* an election whose outcome is not desired.
>Somehow, the ballot was OK and fair until this mess occurred.
>

That's because nobody TOLD them that there WAS a problem with 15,000 similar
ballots being thrown out in '96. Nobody even KNEW about that little revelation
because nobody had the power to find out. Now they do.

This is the same state, remember, where the mayoral election in Miami was
thrown out in '93, with the judge in question declaring this one of the worst
cases of corruption, voter interference and election fraud he'd ever seen. So
it ain't like there isn't precedent for this.

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
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>This is based on bogus information. People are claiming that the ballot
>is illegal, since Florida law requires the name to be to the left of
>where you mark your choice. However, this claim is missing an important
>piece of information: the law they quoted is for *PAPER* ballots. There
>is a separate section of the law in Florida for ballots used in voting
>machines, and it has no such requirement.
>
>Thus, any claim that the ballot is illegal by Florida law is invalid.
>

First, isn't that better for a judge to decide?

Second...in every state it IS required that on the ballot, the two major
parties go first, then the other candidates in order of size. In the Florida
case, Buchanan was above Gore in many cases, so anybody looking for the number
2 slot would punch Buchanan, who HIMSELF said he didn't think most of those
voters in that area were voting for him.

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
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>Seems a lot of Democrats are too dumb to figure out how to fill out a
>ballot. I know it's tough with the arrows pointing to the proper
>hole and all.

Except of course that:

1) Most of the people in that area are older retired citizens, who need a
little help...

2) The order (Bush, Buchanan, Gore) in order on the ballot is not in keeping
with state law...

3) That 19,000 votes in this county were tossed out this year, and 15,000 in
1996, means it must be a hell of a lot more misleading than it seems....

and:

4) Even stupid people get to vote, and can raise a concern if the vote is
cockeyed or disenfranchising. Heck, stupid people even get to run for
president in this country...

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
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>19000 out of 6 million people couldn't possibly have made a mistake and
>punched
>out two holes. There's just no way! And ALL of them MUST have been trying
>to
>vote for AlGore! I guess Bush didn't win by 2000, he lost by 17000! I knew
>you'd whine when Bush won but I didn't expect it to be this bad.
>

1) The confusion is over specifically the way the ballot is set up for the
second and third candidates; the #1 slot, for Bush, is NOT confusing because
it's right there on top.

2) I do not "whine." I have accepted many elections where I did not like the
outcome because that's what the democratic process is *about*. I didn't like
Nixon, didn't like Reagan, didn't much like Bush the Elder...but they were no
less legitimate in their presidency than any other president, and you have to
respect that.

This is, however, the first time in my entire life when it looks like somebody
actually *stole* the election...and I will protest that until all the facts are
brought to light and this is either confirmed or disproven in a court of law.

If you have a problem with the legal process in this country, and the right of
a people to ensure their votes are properly treated, then you are not the
citizen you profess to be.

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
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>Wow, Joe, if the Democrats allege it it must be true. They have absolutely
>no
>vested interest in it and are known for being fair minded, unbiased, and
>honest.
>

1) I'm not taking this on the word of ANY party, democratic or republican. But
when people sign affidavits certifying that they were harrassed or
disenfranchised, when a tape is provided to the FBI by a duly elected
representative in which a GOP phone bank calls people and gives them misleading
information, when it is revealed by the Republicans that 19,000 votes in one
Florida county were tossed out in this election for the same reason that 15,000
votes in the exact came county in '96 and NOBODY thought to mention it to
anybody until now...then it looks to me like something's amiss.

>We know you are a great fiction writer but this is too much, Joe.

Why don't we let the courts decide which is fiction and which is not. I have
no problem with that. You seem to, by virtue of the insulting and patronizing
tone of voice you take here.

Which one of us is the more threatened here, I wonder?

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
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>The key is for them to take their time, read the directions, ask for help if
>necessary, and don't succumb to peer pressure (knowing that people are
>waiting behind you). That's a voter's obligation.

According to ABC news, in many precincts voters -- especially older voters --
were told that they had *exactly* five minutes to cast their ballots otherwise
their ballots would be disqualified. In another case, also reported by ABC and
CBS, translators for minority voters were not allowed to assist those voters.

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
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>My U.S. History professor today drew a picture of the ballot on the
>board and said, "Anyone for meant to vote for Gore and voted for
>Buchanan is just a moron." I would say anyone that would vote for
>Buchanan for any reason is a moron, but I digress.

Your professor is intolerant, especially given the fact that a great number of
those voters, by demographic, were older, senior citizens -- many retirees in a
heavily jewish-population area -- and when you hit a certain age, things become
more problematic. I have a relative for whom I recently bought a tape player
so she can listen to music, and had to find a very simple one because she
wouldn't be able to handle anything more complicated than a big STOP and STOP
button.

Let's come back to your professor when he's 75 and see if he still thinks
people who make mistakes like this are morons.

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
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>It could *also* indicate confused voters, or maybe voters who screwed up and
>didn't know enough to ask for another ballot. Why do you automatically see
>conspiracies everywhere? It doesn't mean that they got 19000 ballots all in
>one chunk with double-punches (indicative of somebody tampering).

If it were a matter of confused voters, then there should be an equal number of
ballots tossed aside in every county, yes? From a statistical point of view,
there are no more confused people in Palm Beach than, say, Dade County.

But this is concentrated in Palm Beach, a noticeably liberal, democratic
stronghold. No other county had anywhere NEAR that much.

And again, as stated elsewhere, this has happened in that exact county before,
in '96, only noboby TOLD them that 15,000 of their votes were thrown aside
until now.

And this is the same state in which the mayoral election was overturned in '93
for voter fraud and corruption.

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
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>According to some other people on this thread they had 14000-15000 thrown
>out votes just like this in 1996, so given the increased turnout this year,
>it may NOT be out of line for this county.

1) Why did they not tell the people of Palm Beach this in 1996 since it's
aberration for the *state* but not for this *county*?

2) WHY were 15,000 thrown out in 1996 in this one county, WHAT makes this so
different from every other county, and WHY did they keep this to themselves
until *right now*? If you lived in a county and knew that every big election
15-19,000 of your votes wouldn't count, wouldn't YOU want something done to
bring the system THERE into sync with the rest of the state?

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
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>There are thousands of voters registered in that county as independant.
>That a fraction of them voted for Buchanan is not surprising. I continue
>to question Buchanan's veracity and Gore's, as I suspect there is a pay off
>in there somewhere.

1) The actual *figures* that have come out certify that only a few hundred
people in that county were Reform party members, the rest were members of other
independent parties, and

2) Most of the population in that area are from jewish backgrounds who took
great exception to many of Buchanan's statement about the holoucoust, and would
never vote for him. One rabbi in the area stated that members of his
congregation were in TEARS over even the *possibility* that they had
accidentally voted for Buchanan.

So it ain't exactly what you'd call a likely prospect.

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
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>Hey, for the first time in my life I got to vote :) And I was proud of it,
>since I recently became a US citizen just last September.

As you should be. Doesn't matter who you voted for, you *got involved* and you
exercised what is the most prized right of any citizen, anywhere, the right to
vote and choose the shape of the country.

And as we've seen, even a few votes here and there can make a *profound*
difference.

Doesn't matter to me who you voted for, that ain't the issue. That you chose
to matter, is what's important.

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
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>The same could be said to you Joe. Your Emperor has no clothes, just
>Chinese campaign contributions.

I'd say there is a PROFOUND difference between a fundraiser (and there are
weirdass fundraisers on BOTH sides of the political aisle...let's start digging
into the massive contributions from the far right evangelicals whose
contributions are contrary to the church/state separation and violate their tax
free status)...and an attempt to subvert the entire electoral process through
vote fraud.

The two are galaxies apart in importance.

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
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>I just visualized the Democrats getting out the vote (registering anybody
>who's breathing, buying them cigarettes to buy their vote, and bussing them
>to the polls). Evidently, *that's* OK, though.
>

Well, options 1 and 3 are not only legal, they're absolutely valid. Anyone who
is alive is eligible to vote. (Previously, anyone in Chicago *not* alive was
also eligible to vote. We stopped that.) And helping people get to the polls
is also not only legal, it's a good idea.

You seem to have a problem in 1 and 3 with the idea that everyone who's an
american citizen should be able to vote. I find this odd for an american to
say.

As for option 2, no that's not legal, and if you have any specifics on who's
doing this, please post it.

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
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>You mean why not tell them this year, right? They obviously didn't know it
>until after the 1996 results were in. They *would* have known for this
>year.

No, I meant why not tell people after the 1996 election. Apparently this was
known but nobody ever bothered to mention it until now.

jms

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>Nobody needed to tell the votors. The election officials should have
>changed the ballot layouts for better ergonomics right after the 1996
>elections. The election officials were the ones who didn't do their job.

dingdingdingdiingding!

Got it in one.


jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
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>We have a Presidential candidate who when confronted with his past said the
>reports are accurate, he's not proud of them, and as he's said before, he
>wasn't the most responsible young man in his youth.
>
>Which one sounds like he's being candid and responsible to you

Except he only said it *after* being confronted with the evidence, and *after*
changing his driver's license number to try and HIDE the information. (Under
Texas law, the only technically legal or legitimate reason for changing the ID
number is in case of identity theft, which no one has ever said was the case
here.)

It's real easy to act contrite when you've been caught.

And this is the same Bush who to this *day* has not given a straight answer to
the drug question.


jms

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>And if, when the facts come out, it proves that Bush won the election in
>accordance with the laws that were in effect at the time of the 11/07/2000
>election, will you let it go, or keep on going for further legal appeals ad
>infinitum?

Why would one want to go for further legal appeals if it's shown that the
election was conducted legally?

That's silly.

It's real simple. The courts aren't going to decide who's president. That
right only and properly belongs to the electorate.

If it goes to court, and the process is shown to have been above board, no vote
fraud, no corruption, why would anyone have a problem accepting the results? I
wouldn't.

If it goes to court, and the process is shown to have been the result of vote
fraud and corruption, why would anyone NOT want the election in Florida
re-done?

If the election in Florida is overturned, as it was in Miami a few years ago,
what happens, as I understand it, is that those who voted -- and ONLY those who
voted -- have the opportunity to vote again. The people will have spoken.

Anybody here got a problem with the people voting their conscience?

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
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>So what do they do now? Florida can't hold another vote.

Yes, they can.

>The people of
>Florida would now have knowledge that they didn't have before.

What knowledge is that? Weren't you the guy arguing for an informed
electorate?

>That would
>artificially influence the turnout numbers.

No, when an election is overturned like this, only those who originally voted
are allowed to vote again.

> Without changing the ballot,
>who's to say some people still won't make the mistake?

Mistakes aren't the issue. Corruption and voter fraud are the issue.
Different things.

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
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>> But the form of the ballot is still technically illegal. If it's
>> really challenged, do you think they'll throw out everyone's ballot
>> who used that format? <evil grin>
>
>Well, that would be one solution. I'm sure the Gore supporters wouldn't go
>for that either.

Except, of course, that that's exactly what would happen.

And if you're going to speak on behalf of Gore supporters, not being one, I'd
like to see your P5 certification.

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
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>: However, this same county has done this in the past, and the votes were not
>: counted then either. Why start now? Just to get Gore elected. When do
>you
>: break the rules, and when don't you?
>
>Because then it didn't affect the outcome.
>

Not to mention that nobody KNEW about it until now.

jms

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>> 1) Most of the people in that area are older retired citizens, who need a
>> little help...
>
>So, they can ask for help. If the first person doesn't know, ask the
>second, etc.

Except that a) they were given only 5 minutes, and b) help in the form of
friends or translators wasn't allowed.

>> 2) The order (Bush, Buchanan, Gore) in order on the ballot is not in
>keeping
>> with state law...
>
>See elsewhere in this thread. It's not in keeping with the law for paper
>ballot s(i.e. pencil & paper ballots), *not* machine punched paper ballots.
>For machine punched paper ballots the punch can be before *or* after the
>name, hence the vertical alignment was OK by Florida law.

I'm not talking about where the punch. I'm talking about the *order of the
candidates names*. Buchanan should have been lower than Gore, not above, by
law.

>and after you vote, if you made a mistake and the card has gone into the
>ballot box, there is no turning back. It's done. Voter screwed up.
>Period.

And if it were an evenly-distributed error, then I'd agree. But when it's
concentrated in one county, which is primarily populated by people who might
vote against the governor's brother...then that's a bit different...and makes
one ask, did they fall or were they pushed?

I'd like that question answered, one way or another.

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
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>Joe, this happens *everywhere* - invalid ballots get thrown away, everywhere
>in the country.
>People mention the '96 situation because it shows that 19,000 invalid
>ballots
>is not unusual for that county.

But you're not getting to the point of the question. That figure is higher
than any other county in Florida. So you have to ask: WHY? *Why* are they so
much higher there than anywhere else?

jms

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>And you'd think they'd remember this, and fix the problem.
>

Cause it ain't in their interests to fix it, since it's a conservative
republican governor in charge, and it's a liberal county in question.

Enlightened self-interest.

jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
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>So voting for the lesser of two evils is the way to go? Is that what you are
>saying? I had expected better of you JMS, than to see you promote that one
>evil is
>better than the other. Funny, Sheridan chosing between two evils chose the
>third
>option. Perhaps convictions in fantasy are easier than reality.
>
>Personally, I voted Libertarian, for freedom and liberty, rather than evil.
>
>I guess I'm funny that way.
>

Funny how you condemn someone for deciding to make a decision along the lines
of conscience.

Is Gore the best we've got? No, I don't think so. I think we have better. I
wish they would have run.

They didn't.

Bush, in my view, was substantially worse, and more dangerous.

One of those two was going to the white house. That was inevitable. If there
was a real third party in this country that could've mounted a solid chance of
going for the white house, I probably would've given it serious thought. If
the election weren't as close as this was was shaping up to be, I probably
would've voted for Nader.

But I felt my obligation was to try to ensure that the worse of the two did not
get into office.

That was the voice of my conscience. Which you ridicule, while I do not
ridicule your choice.

I always kinda thought that following your conscience was the whole IDEA behind
B5.


jms

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